People I’ve Met On LinkedIn
A Conversation with Tony Sipp
One of the things that I love about LinkedIn is the ability to reach out and build genuine relationships. Over the years, I've been lucky to do just that. In this new series, People I've Met on LinkedIn, I hope to introduce the n208 community to the unique professionals I've had the pleasure of getting to know - across industries and across the country.
My first introduction is to Tony Sipp. I first met Tony while sponsoring a Los Angeles Paralegal Association event. As a Paralegal Manager, he's responsible for an in-house paralegal department for a top-tier full-service national law firm. He's also a former Councilmember for the Greater Vally Glen Neighborhood and is the newest co-host for The Paralegal Voice (because he clearly needs more to do).
Below is an edited version of our audio conversation centered on equity and inclusion, and like all good conversations, it led us to discuss other topics regarding the legal industry.
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Equity and inclusion
Irasema:
You've been in the legal industry for 15 years. So let's start there because it's a unique perspective. And I want to dive right in with, "What's it like to be a black man in the legal industry?"
Tony:
That's a good question. And I think the response to that is the system wasn't designed for us at all to succeed. The fact that I'm here, where I'm at as a manager for paralegals, is amazing. And I know all of the steps it took for my people to get me to even be in this position. While it's challenging, we still have judges that are black. We have Supreme Court Justices recently appointed. But it's still not equal yet.
The discussion happening, which is great, is the inequity in pay and trying to bridge that gap. One significant law implemented was notifying people on a job post of the salary range. Before that (some states still don't), you didn't know what you could get paid. And you'd spend all this energy trying to get a job for $15 an hour. The inequity is still there.
My job, as I see it, is to address those things and make the world a better place than what I came into. One is to promote persons of color and get them more involved. In fact, my law firm was recognized in Law 360 as having one of the highest percentages of people of color that are equity partners, 25%. It's just rare, and it shouldn't be. So that's what we have to fix. That's the challenge. We must move forward and keep going, not just for my firm but for every firm. When I hire people, I'm looking for that diversity, the competence as well, but diversity as well. I am getting people who otherwise wouldn't have a chance to get in.
But my encouragement is this, on a positive note. Now is the time to go for a job. If you just got out of school, it's an employee's market. So go for it. Go for it right now because it's flooding your way, especially people of color. I've been contacting many people and have been reached by many people trying to get into the field. I like helping those people. I like being that mentor.
I know how challenging it is because it hasn't been easy. And I've lost opportunities because of the color of my skin. You know, I've been called boy by an equity attorney, not at my firm, but at another firm. That mindset still exists. We can see from the current climate in politics it still exists. That's why I ran for office and got elected twice to address issues like that. It takes work. It requires a lot of your downtime.
We want to help people is why we do this. As an African American, a black person, I don't want to disappoint the people who got me here. What I mean by that is from Rosa Parks to now, even beyond that, Martin Luther King, I can go on and on. They made sacrifices so I could be where I am now. I need to make sacrifices so the next generation can be where they need to be, above me, because we're all aiming for the same goal.
Mentorship wins
Irasema
Your examples are Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. As a woman and minority, it's unique for me. I appreciate the word mentor. My examples are like the ones that you gave. They're not somebody in the industry today that helped me. I have to look at a historical person. Is that the same for you, or is it just happened to be those are the two most profound people in your life?
Tony
For me, it was Thurgood Marshall. I'm a non-fiction reader. I like the facts to make my life better. At that time, I was just such a serious man, and I would go through life like I needed to make changes. I have to continue the fight. So, he was definitely a leader for me. And then, once I got into the industry and realized how much I did not know, others came along. I have some great mentors who led me down a road I didn't think I could go. They said to me, you're more than capable. And I didn't see it in myself. They saw it in me and then developed that in me and said, now go. And I did.
Irasema
To go back to something else, you said. Your firm just received this great award. They didn't get there by accident. They laid a path of mentorship. How did they do it, and how do you continue to ensure that others are on that path, whether in your firm or somewhere else that hasn't laid that path for their paralegals?
Tony
I don't want to speak for my firm, but they built their practice 28 years ago on getting out of the typical law firm where people aren't happy. They wanted to be happy and actually enjoy the work. So they did that. Their team, the founding partners, is comprised of diverse people. And they hire diverse people. I hire diverse people. Do you know what happens when you hire diverse people? You get a stronger, better company - period. Whether it's a law firm, a restaurant, or wherever you are, you're going to get a better thing. And from that, because they have a different culture, and how they look at a case, or files is different, and when they present their ideas, it's like, that makes sense. We can do that. Let's do that. You can resolve a case quicker because somebody gets it and understands a different culture.
How a background in other sectors helps
Irasema
I like the tie-in to the diversity of not just color but backgrounds. That's something that's still unique in the legal industry, maybe because there's a pipeline that has to occur in law that doesn't happen with others. You make a good point when you bring a perspective others could not imagine. When you hire a diverse set of people to bring a diverse set of experiences and perspectives, you end up with a better way of connecting with clients and customers, and people around you, and then that starts this wheel. Is that perspective critical?
Tony
Absolutely. Listen, I have a finance background. I have a criminal justice background. I have a housing background and a bunch of other things. All that experience I bring with me plays out in the firm. I'll give an easy example of finding an elusive witness. I used to be that guy. Once the person was released on bail or released into our custody, I had to find them when they skipped trial or their appearance. I learned from experts how to find people. They trained me how to do that, and now I can take that skill and apply it.
Is that something they would've known about me just by looking at my resume? No, but it's a skill that I have. That diversity, that different culture, that different way of thinking - it plays into the performance overall. You have people that put their heads down and drive through the work. Then other people analyze a case and see gaps the attorneys may have missed. You need a combination of skills. The cultural difference helps, diversity helps, willpower and your attitude help. I can work with somebody who says, "I don't know how to do that, but I'll try."
Irasema
That's the perspective that we sometimes miss. When you're a minority in a profession like legal, I think tech too, your background will likely differ from those around you because you've started somewhere else. The journey to where I am today was not straight, and none is straightforward, but ours has to veer off a little bit more.
In the legal field or any field, you know that when you bring in somebody with a diverse background, they will have something off that resume. As you mentioned, they have skills because they've had five jobs and now five ways to solve a problem. So you have to bring all that in. It's unique to us.
Tony
It is. It's something that I realize, and I recognize, because I've been through a lot. I've been rejected. I've been told no, for many different reasons. We grow up that way. I grew up that way. You come in early and leave late. That's the thing. To be better, you have to work twice as hard as your white counterpart. And you still can be better than your counterpart, but they have that privilege. Right? It's something that we work on. I have some really great people that help. But again, the system isn't designed for us to succeed. So pushing through is challenging but doable. Because it's not about me anymore, it's about the collective. I am trying to improve things for everyone. It's the reason I mentor people. I want you to have my job and do an even better job while I move on. I want you to be successful. Here are the roadblocks and hurdles that you're going to run into. Here's how you handle those. Learn, get that, and move on.
Irasema
I love that. We've all had that manager or exec. And it's not meant in the wrong way. It's just different. Sometimes it can be generational as well, that I'm protecting myself and my job. Even from a colleague's perspective, it may be that they're going to hoard information because they're surviving.
But your viewpoint is that I know what it took to get here. My job is to make you successful. As a leader, you're not trying to save your job. You're preserving your job for the industry and the people around you to continue doing this for the next five generations.
Tony:
My biggest flaw is that I'm very protective and care too much about others, especially those I represent. It comes up a lot. I don't think I'll change. I haven't changed in years. That matters when you have that level of care, the same level you have for a case. When you open yourself up, they open themselves up and trust you as a leader. And I do that. I had to learn that because I used to be a nine-to-five guy. The day I decided to share a bit about my life was when I didn't have a job for six months - I had it for three years. People care about you as a person. We need to get back to that because one of the biggest problems is that people aren't respecting others and what they bring. We can make this better. We need to come together and not divide ourselves.
Irasema
The empathy bug needs to be viral more than anything else.
Tony
Yes. Well said.
Balancing tech & human-centered learning
Irasema
That empathy for humans and that there are humans in tech can equal success. Take the trend of AI and ChatGPT. There's always going to be tech that makes things better. But, the true success will always be in the humans behind it. We can't lose that humanity because once we lose it, well, we already know what happens. We have to be empathetic. And that is what drives us to be better leaders.
Tony
Absolutely. I posted on LinkedIn not long ago about an AI lawyer robot trying to represent people. You're not replaceable that way. A person who understands people, their tasks, and what they can do; a lot is involved in that. And how to motivate people. You can't replace that. That's something that if they go down that road, they can't go down that road. It won't work. It won't.
Irasema
Kind of like DE&I, right? You're not trying to replace the white man or woman. You're enhancing the capability.
Tony
I think the fear is that the population is growing more with people of color. That whole "we will not be replaced." Nobody's replacing anybody. We've been behind for a long time, and we're catching up. We're getting to that point. You know decisions need to be made to improve our lives and live the dream. Right?
Irasema
It's a collective whole. In the AI discussion, the same thing is that there will always be technology. Otherwise, we'd all be in horse-drawn carriages. I live in rural Idaho, so that's still real life. But we all drive cars, and we all work on laptops. There will always be a technology push, and if you're smart enough and have the perspective that you and others do, you will use tech efficiently. It allows you to have an extra hour or two hours to mentor, guide, empathize, and dive deeper into a case. The crux of all this, of law, is you're trying to do justice for something or somebody. So, it's okay to let the tech do certain things.
Tony:
Exactly, and law schools are starting to teach future lawyers about technology. Paralegals, your paralegal, is going to know about it already. I'm dealing with that now. An easy example is if the client sends you a PTS of their emails from 1999 to the present. Do you want to go through all of that? No, you don't. You put it into a system for ediscovery and narrow it down (to use a generic number) from 100,000 emails to 1,000 or 10 relevant. Yeah. Technology is a benefit when used properly. But you have to tie it in. You have to know how to use it. I've been working on getting my CEDS, reading about technology, and developing my skill set. Coming down the road, if you don't know ediscovery, it won't matter what your resume says because it will be what they need from you. You have to be relevant. The fact that you learn to keep up with things in your industry.
Irasema
I bet that some of the partners look at it as magic. That's a similar thing about marketing. It's still thought of as coming up with a tagline, a logo. In reality, there's a lot of technology. There's a human that had to learn all of it. As a leader, you have to be the advocate to teach people; in your case it's partners, in my case it's company executives, what we do is not magic. You must realize the people behind it are just as valuable as the tech.
Tony
And this goes back to DE&I as well, tapping into that potential that others have. I'm an Excel person, for example. I'm good, but I'm not excellent. I have someone who's excellent at Excel on my team, and guess what I do? I put that person on the project that needs somebody excellent at Excel. That would only happen if I knew them and had that diversity already there. Or somebody who can translate a document or a bunch of documents from one language to another. It wouldn't happen. We'd have to pay a third party. But if we have that in-house and they didn't know because they never asked? You built your team, right? You listen, right? You look for them. I pay attention. I pay attention to the obstacles that come my way. And if I can get somebody on board for the firm to fill that role, I look good. They look good. We all look good.
So, you know, empathy is there. You're not replaceable. You're going to make things more efficient with technology. You're not going to be able to replace the effort and education that went into that individual trying to make themselves better and applying that skill so it can be helpful to others. That's our whole education system. That's not magic. You have to put the work in. You do. And when you make it look easy. It means you're good. You're really good at what you do.
Irasema:
You're right. You can't replace the human behind that. You can make things more efficient, but you can't replace the human.
Tony
The pandemic lost a lot of people. A lot of firms had to close. They didn't have the technology. They couldn't get their employees to work from home. They weren't prepared. Some merged, some closed, and some retired. The ones that are around now, even though it's challenging, they embrace technology. They embrace diversity. They embrace humans. And you get paid more now because they understand the need.
Irasema
It gives empowerment with those three things: tech, diversity, and humans. So, what would you tell others in the industry if they had magic? If they had a magic lamp. What is the wish going forward?
Magic Wish for Success
Tony
Go for it. Don't be fearful. Don't live a life of regret. You have to go for those challenges. I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't say, you know what? I think I can do that. And then I was able to do that. You have to go out there and get turned down 99 times, but that one time, that'd be the time to make a difference.
I've been given this platform to help the firm. I've also been given this platform to help others get to where I am. I want to bring you in. I want, especially people of color, to bring you in and get you up there. Now, I'm still from New York, so I'm impatient. Shoot straight. I'll shoot straight. I want to bring you on if you have that.
It's also important to write your goals down. There's something magic that does happen when you do that. Work backward as well. What I mean by that is, imagine where you want to be. And then work backward on how to get there. Once you figure that out, the universe plays its role in helping you get there. You have to assess what you want for yourself, your family, or those you represent and the sacrifices that may be necessary. Are you willing to do that? If you are, stop talking and start doing. Get out there and start doing it. Nobody will hand it to you. If you still need to figure that out, then you're behind. But you can do it. That's the thing. You can do it.
Irasema
And we're talking to people from the future. I'm getting older and this mid-forties future is telling you if you don't go for it, you won't be where you want to be. Everything you've ever accomplished, it's because you went for it.
Tony
It may not be your desired goal. I had a lot of goals that I thought I would accomplish, but because I went for them, an opportunity presented itself. I was prepared for it, and I was able to take it on. What's the phrase? When preparation meets opportunity - luck. Get prepared. When that opportunity presents itself, you're ready for it. That hand goes up when they're like, does anybody know how to work with Relativity? Yeah, I do. And there it is. Guess what? You're the expert. That's how it works.
Don't slack on yourself. Don't become complacent. I'll admit I did that. I figured out I couldn't be that, especially in a management role. I have to be on all the time. I have to know the answers. I have to know the new laws implemented for all the states we're a part of. That's my job. I need to do that and inform the attorneys who may not know and the paralegals. It's constant learning. Keep learning. It will make a difference in your life.
Irasema:
Is that what you love about the job, that you're always learning? Especially in the legal world. It changes all the time.
Tony:
Constantly. One of the things I love about it is we're moving towards something. The law is fluid. We're moving towards something. Laws change. Things change. I love learning about it and seeing what I can do to make a change, especially if I don't agree with it. Whether that means I'm protesting in the streets or I like to take out my computer and type legal responses. I will utilize all the skills that I've learned and that I've accumulated over the years to address an issue that I care about. And you'll know that because I have a lot of things out there that I care about with my name on them. I practice what I preach. I'm not just talking about this stuff. I go out there and do it. Because, again, I love learning. I love the law and what it's capable of doing. And that's why I'm here. That's what I'm doing in this field.
